Interview: James Mangold Explains Why Indiana Jones is Still Fighting Nazis in Dial of Destiny

At Star Wars Celebration 2023, IGN had the chance to speak to Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny’s director James Mangold, Phoebe Waller-Bridge, and Mads Mikkelsen, and they discussed why this fifth entry in the franchise still has Indy fighting Nazis, how Indy’s goddaughter Helena Shaw is a different kind of hero, and why villains are so compelling.

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny will be released in theaters on June 30, 2023, and very well may be the last time Harrison Ford grabs Indy’s legendary hat and whip on the big screen. This obviously makes Dial of Destiny a very important film, and with de-aging tech that will bring back a younger Indy and other surprises in store for fans who have been on this journey for over 40 years, putting a focus on where the franchise began seemed like the perfect choice.

An Ever-Present Evil and a Dream Come True

In 1981’s Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indy worked to stop the Nazis from finding the Ark of the Covenant, and now, in Dial of Destiny, he looks to be facing off against them again. As the trailer released during Star Wars Celebration revealed, Mikkelsen’s Jurgen Voller seems hellbent on bringing back the Nazis and Hitler as he says, “Hitler made mistakes. And with this, I will correct them.”

According to Mangold, Nazis are tied to the franchise and, unfortunately, they, and other groups like them, are still relevant today in various forms.

“They’re as much a part of the character of Indiana Jones as every other element we’re familiar with,” Mangold said. “But also I think there are a million ways it’s just relevant even to our world today, whether they’re called one thing or another, these things don’t die away. These groups have kind of dreams of order and of the old days and are trying to return to them. So I felt like it was both familiar and relevant.”

Speaking of origins, Mangold also talked about becoming the first director besides Steven Spielberg to direct an Indiana Jones film. For him, it was a dream come true moment to be able to be a part of this iconic franchise, but even he had his reservations.

“Well, at first I was hesitant because of my admiration for Steven [Speilberg] and Harrison [Ford] and stepping in,” Mangold said. “But when they came to me, there was such a feeling that they were still open to what the story was going to be. And so I got the opportunity for a year to kind of really work with the Butterworth brothers, Jez and John-Henry, on what the story of this film was going to be.

“And in some ways, the danger always with sequels is really, do they just exist to make money or do they have something left to say? And that’s kind of the blunt question for me. Money is wonderful, but I’m not really interested in the creative act of just making a thing that’s here just to cash in on its name.”

So, for Mangold, it was all about finding the reason for what would become known as Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny to exist. Obviously, they did.

“It was about finding a reason for this movie to be, and something for it to say. And I think we did. And it’s been one of the most miraculous journeys of my life,” Mangold shared. “Not only getting a chance to collaborate with all those you mentioned, but also these guys (Waller-Bridge and Mikkelsen) and Harrison and John Williams and the miraculous crew behind the scenes working on the picture.

“When you’re young and you watch movies you admire, you go, ‘I’d like to do that someday, or something like that someday.’ But it is such a miraculous thing to find yourself actually doing that. You are in a cave with cobwebs with Harrison Ford and Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Nazis. And it is awe-inspiring. In the moments you’re actually doing it, you don’t have that feeling because you’ve got too much work to do to keep up with the greatness that preceded you. But in moments like this, you kind of go, whoa, that’s kind of wild.”

A Different Kind of Hero and a Villain Worth Exploring

Phoebe Waller-Bridge will be playing Helena Shaw, who just so happens to be Indy’s goddaughter. However, don’t expect her to simply follow in his footsteps.

“I think the thing is that she really looks forward, whereas I think Indy looks backwards in terms of his love for history,” Waller-Bridge said. “And I think that’s what sort of differentiates them at the beginning, but they sort of bring each other’s perspectives together in a way that I think is really beautiful.”

Alongside saying that Helena Shaw and her character in Fleabag are alike in the sense that they are “both rascals,” she explored a bit as to what makes these characters special.

“What I’m always searching for as an actor and also as a writer and as an audience member is to have a character that keeps you on your toes, someone that you love to watch her get into trouble because you know that the way she gets out of it is going to be amusing,” Waller-Bridge says. “But she is also somebody, essentially, at the end of the day, that you care about. And that’s what I think is extraordinary about this film. For all the adventures, there’s such heart and you really, really care about all the characters.”

Mangold then chimed in and praised Waller-Bridge and what she brought to the role.

“When we first started, when we were in prep, I remember Phoebe saying to me as I was still working on the script and talking to everyone, and she said to me, ‘I really want Helena to be… there’s this first time you meet her and then a second time you meet her, and then a third and a fourth and a fifth. But that the second time has to be a radically different person than the first time.

“And then the challenge for her later in the picture was going to be to pull all these divergent sides together. And I think she does so smashingly. But it was also really fun to work on because usually you’re trying to just lay a straight breadcrumb trail for a character. And so it’s great to be working with an actress who is so good on the ski slopes of acting that she could carve this way and then carve that way and then carve this way and at the same time maintain the center of the character.”

“And that’s what I think is extraordinary about this film. For all the adventures, there’s such heart and you really, really care about all the characters.”

As for Mads MIkkelsen, IGN’s Alex Stedman asked the actor why he loves playing villains so much. After all, he’s played one in Harry Potter, Star Wars, Marvel, James Bond, and now Indiana Jones.

“They love me. I don’t know. I can blame it on the funny accent, I guess,” Mikkelsen joked. “No, a good villain is just somebody all actors wants to dive into. When they’re well written like definitely in this case, they have two sides of the coin. We have to find a little part of them where we go, that makes sense. I can follow him that far. And then of course it goes a little too far. So it’s just very human, if you can find humanity of the character, it will become interesting. And so we always try to do that. That’s not being on the character side, that’s just finding something we can link to.”

Mangold jumped off Mikkelsen’s comments and added even more context for the love of a good villain.

“Don’t you think antagonists are almost always the most interesting and driven characters in movies? I think they are,” Mangold said. “And I think one of the interesting things in the 20th century is here it became less cool to be a hero, to want things, conquer things, grab things, a protagonist. So most of our heroes are more confused and torn. But one of the beautiful things as a writer, when you write antagonists or villains or whatever you want to call them, is that they know what they want.”

“Absolutely,” Mikkelson said in agreement. “And I was just thinking about that because when we meet Helena and Indy in the beginning of this film, they’re kind of lost. Both of them are lost. I know she’s a busy woman, but she’s lost in her life. There’s no goal. This man has a goal. nd he’s had it for a long time. So, it’s an interesting character to dive into.”

It sure sounds as there will be a huge focus on character in Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, but Waller-Bridge assures fans that it will be more than just talking and motivations.

“There is a lot of action though,” Waller-Bridge says. “Indy is put through the wringer on this, just as Harrison Ford was.”

For more, check out all the other big news from Star Wars Celebration 2023, how Ford didn’t think Indy 5 was necessary but is happy with how it turned out, and the Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom figures also revealed at Star Wars Celebration.

Alex Stedman is a Senior News Editor with IGN, overseeing entertainment reporting. When she’s not writing or editing, you can find her reading fantasy novels or playing Dungeons & Dragons.

Adam Bankhurst is a news writer for IGN. You can follow him on Twitter @AdamBankhurst and on Twitch.